It’s all about Philippe Coutinho and Barcelona and Liverpool in this show as the Gutter goes through the wringer about the young Brazilian.
What should Liverpool do? What should they do differently? What happens next?
Rob Gutmann hosts as Neil Atkinson, Mike Nevin and Glenn Price run the rule over Coutinho.
Is Mike pissed again?
Great listen this and has to be one of the top five podcasts – I think most rational if not all Reds have accepted that the lad won’t be here next season but hopefully the outcome this window will be as positive as the previous window in that the contribution he has made so far this season is replicated during the next five months. As is often said this single podcast is worth a fiver in itself. Thanks TAW
No. Are you?
Sorry guys, not really sure giving it this title works at all – great pod as ever (not heard all that many ‘Gutters’, but if this is typical, I’ll look forward to many more!), but I can’t agree that you’re cutting ‘thru the bullshit’. Only my opinion of course
FWIW, I really don’t believe PC is going anywhere this window, for all the foregoing mentioned. Nobody wins
Unbelievable content guys. Thoroughly thoroughly enjoyed that .
Haha, this pod actually cheered me up…..in a nihilistic, gallows humour type of way. More Mike Nevin illness pods I say! (within reason obviously Mike, very slight cough that clears up minutes after recording etc). :)
I’ve listened to a lot of TAW podcasts over the last few years and literally cant remember a less rational contribution to one than Mike Nevin has just given here.One nonsensical argument after another in a desperate attempt to aportion blame for Coutinho’s behaviour on everybody except where it actually belongs…with Coutinho.Neil and Rob took his arguments apart very politely but sometimes people need to be told they’re talking bollocks,fever or no fever. “I’m not on here to defend the club,I’m on here to give my opinion”,and that’s fine Mike but generally the opinion should be backed up with considered thought and you failed miserably on that count mate.
It doesn’t have to be ‘considered’ though Mick, to be fair. It’s about passion and emotion on TAW just as much as quiet rationalism. I think that’s the reason I like this web magazine so much, it’s honesty.
I’d be the first to admit that not all football opinions are governed by rationale James and I quite enjoy listening to emotional and passionate arguments,but if you’re going on a podcast to aportion blame,then I’d suggest there does have to be considered rationale unless the person aportioning blame is happy to concede their argument carries no credibility. Surely you’d agree that a contributor on a podcast who’s criticising somebody at the club,needs to back up that criticism? I understand some will find that kind of thing entertaining and that’s fine but it’s not what makes TAW great.The measured reaction and ability to navigate the grey areas better than all the other podcasts out there is what does and they often do it in a passionate and emotional way,it doesn’t have to be mutually exclusive.You enjoy the honesty as do I,but what’s honest about levelling criticism without backing it up? And that’s what Mike Nevin did.
Agreed. I respect Mike’s passion but his arguments certainly didn’t hold up to even the smallest level of scrutiny.
Totally hear what you’re saying Mick (and Zack) and not saying I agree with Mike (I don’t) but what I believe is so good about TAW is BOTH the rational discourse, AND the emotional, reactive argument. I think Mike is just ‘raging against the storm’ and (for me) that, framed here opposed to the more considered approach of Neil and Rob, is compelling. Mike is vague in his search for someone/ something to blame so I don’t consider his point offensive in anyway or lacking responsibility. He is just a passionate red like you or I, articulating his frustration. Fairplay though lads, agree to disagree. All the best. :)
Completely agree with everything Neil says in this one. He’s got it bang on.
Find a thigh specialist in Siberia, send him there for the rest of Jan if he refuses to play. Somewhere with lots of outdoor physiotherapy.
Mike: “Do it better LFC!”
Everyone else: “How?”
Mike: “They’ve got to do better!”
Everyone else: “Sure but how?”
Mike: “Better! Come on, it’s not hard, more good!!”
Everyone else: “Get well soon Mike!” *carefully apply hand sanitizer*
Liverpool could not have done anything more last Summer or currently. He’s South American, they are the biggest club in the world for Brazilians. Thy have also more of less dominated domestically and on the European stage playing amazing football. He will be playing with Messi.
Only important thing is that he stays until Summer and we get good dough. Don’t get Mike’s argument at all.
Coutinho is behaving disgustingly which is sad but simply need him in team for the rest of the season as we are the second best team in the league capable of going far in Europe.
That Mike is an annoying gobbler
Well that was …..fun? Seems that Mike wants a face to face with Phil and Klopp to explain the Nevin Principles.
Phil got and is getting ( IMHO) bad advice from:
De Gea is currently on wages that would see him be 2nd highest earner behind Cristiano Ronaldo at Madrid. So by the time they paid a huge transfer fee & addressed their senior players wanting to earn at least as much as the new boy, the deal’s not worth doing.
Goalkeepers also aren’t rainmakers – Sports Direct sold more Mkhitaryan shirts than DeGea ones last summer. There’s so little prestige in the position (note how Valdes has just retired with virtually no fanfare or puff pieces in the press – despite six league titles, three Champions League trophies, a dozen assorted other cups and the World Cup too).
LOL Mike just blaming everyone and venting frustration. Should listen to and consider the points of Rob and Neil, he’s just venting here without listening, and talking over everyone else. Saying it’s up to the medical staff to say if he’s fit or not is not that easy. If, like in the summer, he says he has a back problem. Or in this case a thight hamstring. It’s not possible to medically prove this, especially the back problem. So, like klopp said in the summer, he just have to go by what the medical team tells him. And I if the player is faking a injury they can’t prove it, just suspect it.
Sometimes you cannot find a good solution and I think the club is handling a difficult situation as best they can. Some assumptions I think are most likely true, and makes the situation very difficult, are the following.
1. The club are fully backing the manager. 2. The manager does not want a player that doesn’t want to be part of his project. 3. The player will do anything to force his move.
I think Neil made a very poignant point in assessing Barcelonas strategy. It basically comes down to pressuring liverpool to take a low ball offer in the summer. I think. So it’s difficult for liverpool to get good value for money while simultaniously backing Klopp if he values team spirit and thinks the player is disruptive.
Good show lads. I understand Mike’s frustration. I think the truth is, he really wants to play for Barca. I think what you saw across the start of the summer was a guy who thought he had no hope for a move that year suddenly be confronted with his wildest dreams. Then the madness ensues. I think our best bet is to set the bar high for Barca, make them pay what he’s worth AND only in the summer. We cannot let Coutinho leave now. It absolutely has the potential to derail our season completely. Even an early public deal similar to Keita might not be worth it if we don’t get a replacement in during January, because AFAIK our new shorter English transfer window kicks in this year. I think what we’ve already saw proves that his ambitions lie elsewhere and like Neil said, I don’t know if us winning trophies changes that sadly. What can change that for other players however, is finishing strongly in both the champions league, the league and hell, maybe even an FA cup. All of that involves not getting rid of Coutinho before the summer.
Did this end up in a punch up??
Between being pissed, failing miserably and being an annoying “gobbler” – I presume that’s a woollyback term, because I’ve never heard it – thank you for the personal insults.
While not being in the slightest bit bothered by such inanity, I’ll take the liberty of using my right to respond on here.
My views are based on a mentality prevalent when Liverpool FC and most importantly it’s supporters we’re imbued with stronger minds, a constructive questioning approach that held decision-makers and leaders to account and realises that players are fickle creatures who need managing.
The wider fan base these days is weak-minded, accepting and is loathe to criticise anything about a “club” that revels in its own mediocrity.
Look in the cupboard. It’s bare.
I said you failed miserably to back up the points you were making Mike and I stand by that and don’t consider it a personal insult,more fair comment which is what I’m assuming the comments section is for. The name calling in other posts is wrong and you’re perfectly within your rights to address it,and to your right of reply to the criticism you’re receiving.But imo you’ve again failed to address the criticism and you’re moving the goalposts.What has the “weak minded wider fan base revelling in it’s own mediocrity” got to do with you failing to back up your criticism on a specific issue in a competent way?
If you’ve a point to make about the owners,make it.If you want to hold them to account,do that but you weren’t doing that as you suggest,in a constructive manner.You were ranting and criticising without backing up your criticism and that’s what I had a go over.Ive listened to you in the past make points about the owners,the direction of the club and all manner of other things I didn’t necessarily agree with you on,but the points were backed up with coherent arguments.That didn’t happen here,you’re being judged in this comments section (stupid name calling aside)on your performance on this pod,not your mentality or feelings about where we are as a club, and lashing out in the way you are now because of that is imo poor form.
By the way,Its not weak minded to be rational and considered in your criticism Mike,I’d say it’s probably the opposite because believe it or not there’s supporters out there who don’t share all your views,get just as angry about LFC not being where we want it to be,yet manage to take a different approach in airing those views.As a long time listener I’d say you actually work with a few of those people.
Least you managed to give out another wool shout,something people on this podcast are pretty fond of. I presume loads of wools pay to subscribe to the Anfield wrap or do they all have an L postcode? Know your customer and all that ay.
I don’t have much of an issue with the passion etc, even if the argument was purely emotive. I am a bit disappointed with the wools shouts though. Surely there’s uninformed fans all over the world, including Liverpool.
You have a point Mike, re: the club acting ‘big’ but I think we are seeing that gradually. Changing perceptions, both within and without cannot happen overnight.
On those ‘upset’ by the ‘wool’ comments….seriously? It’s in response to some infantile name-calling and hardly the most offensive thing to be called!
“My views are based on a mentality prevalent when Liverpool FC and most importantly it’s supporters we’re imbued with stronger minds, a constructive questioning approach that held decision-makers and leaders to account and realises that players are fickle creatures who need managing.
The wider fan base these days is weak-minded, accepting and is loathe to criticise anything about a “club” that revels in its own mediocrity.
Look in the cupboard. It’s bare.”
Are you having a laugh with this, Mike? Who the heck do you think you are and who do you think you’re talking to and about? Who elected or appointed you Grand Defender of LFC Tradition and Purity?
Nothing of the sort is behind or the basis of your irrational, intransigent moaning and complaining. You’re just “frustrated” and talking a load of sh*te to make yourself feel better. Atkinson, especially, dealt with every single component and version of your so called ‘argument’ logically and with evidence. He also did so whilst maintaining decorum and giving you far more respect and deference than you gave him and the other participants in the podcast. You need to learn to actually debate. Repeating the same crappy point over and over again “with passion” is not debating.
Loved this – great fun!!!
Brill podcast chaps, I really enjoyed that one. Just one point, aren’t we being overly restrictive in how we are thinking about ‘how coutinho will be replaced’? Keegan was not solely replaced by Dalglish (we used the Keegan fee to buy Dalglish and Hansen with the loose change) and Rushy was not replaced by Aldo but rather by Barnes, Beardsley, Aldo and Houghton. Say we get £130m for Coutinho (and for some reason, Barca don’t appear to want to pay that) and buy Lemar for £80m and then use the remainder plus a bit on top to buy either Oblak or Weigl (and imagine the prospect of a Keita and Weigl midfield) and sort one of our two problem positions. Surely then as a whole we have improved the side?
Mike Nevin you’re 100% correct. He’s under contract. No buyout clause. End of. To sell in January would be madness and makes no sense. Our club needs to act accordingly.
Annoying gobbler? Far from it. You spoke complete sense. Great podcast lads! Best £5 a month I’ve ever spent. YNWA
The only way Coutinho stays beyond the summer is if Liverpool resist a deal in January, and Barcelona move on to other targets by the summer window. There is not a lot the club can do about that, unless they went with some ill advised scorched earth approach that would serve no ones interest. The idea that somehow making him club captain would sway him is rubbish. He doesn’t seem to enjoy the (English) media duties at all, and I’m sure he would just rather be allowed to focus on his own game.
Coutinho wants to play for Barcelona, he sees the opportunity that might not remain open for very long, and he knows that he and is family will enjoy the lifesyle out there. (Remember he has already had half a season playing in Barcelona.) He’s going to push for it, or at least let his agent push for it.
I think the best thing Liverpool can do, is hold on this window and then make sure they can get any replacement lined up early in the Summer, so that once the World Cup is out of the way, Klopp has a squad committed and ready to prepare for the new season. We don’t need another summer window of this sort of drama hanging over the club, distracting from the club from the work in hand, allowing the media to make the whole thing in to a circus and bringing the fans down. Having said that, if Klopp would rather have him out of the door earlier so he can focus on those players committed to the cause (and Emre!), I’m fine with that.
Meanwhile Arsenal are 5 points adrift and powerless to keep their two superstars after having already sold Chamberlain to us. Reasons to be cheerful.
You reap what you sow, Liverpool football club need to stand up and prove that they are club who can not be pressured into making a decision which no doubt will have a negative effect on our season.Klopp has publicly stayed out of the equation so that he can inspire and motivate Phil if he is still involved.Klopps team ethos is being undermined and he won’t be happy, there comes a point when keeping him will be more trouble than its worth.I fear this summer is the best we can hope for and the powers that be (Edwards) are learning fast.As a fan I want like every other fan to be proud of my club for many reason one of which is its magnitude, start acting like a big club who’s main purpose is to win. You reap what you sow.
I don’t get the criticism of Mike Nevin’s contribution to this pod. Agreed it is emotional but I see nothing wrong with that and varied passionate views make for a much more interesting listen than everyone chiming in with each other.
I do also strongly agree with the general thrust of what he says. To say that the club/Klopp are in no way responsible for the situation arising again in January is bizarre. We don’t have to become treble winners overnight but how about maintaining the firm stance that was there in the summer? Why did we our public utterances change so drastically from a firm ‘no chance of a sale’ to ‘you never know’. If we had maintained the firm stance as we did with Suarez and United with Ronaldo that no sale would even be countenanced until the end of the season, Coutinho would have sulked but then got on with it. There is no way he would have gone on strike or played poorly in a world cup year. Please tell me which big team with serious ambitions and aspirations sells it’s best player mid season? Cliches come a dime a dozen in football and none more so than no player being bigger than the club. But if the club sell Coutinho in January that is exactly the message they are sending; they are wilfully risking the entire season and quite possibly Liverpool’s short-term future because they couldn’t withstand the pressure from one player. And if Coutinho is allowed to leave at such a pivotal point of the season then anyone can. We may as well get used to a repeat show every other window.
At the moment, let’s face it, we’re all speculating. I’ll get right behind Mike’s argument about the club mishandling this situation if we do indeed allow Coutinho to go in January, replacement or no replacement.
Where I disagree is in his attaching no blame to the player himself for this situation having arisen. Sure, most players act in a similar way and nobody should want to deny him the chance to fulfill his dream. The fact is though that he and his agent stuck a large obstacle in their own path the moment they, almost out of nowhere, signed such a long contract extension with no buy-out clause. It’s said in Spain that several Barcelona directors were bemused by this, as they’d long been in contact over a proposed move and saw it a) as being a massive complication for any negotiations and b) as giving a mixed signal about how much he actually wanted to leave Liverpool (this is one of the few believable things to have been written by the toilet paper that is Mundo Deportivo). So I’m sorry, while I understand that circumstances change, you cannot expect as a footballer to gratefully accept vastly improved terms and job-security one minute and then hope to coerce the same employers into letting you leave on someone else’s terms the next.
Mike ruined this podcast never have him on the gutter again
Absolutely no problem with Mike’s anger and frustration coming through except that there were too many interruptions of Neil and Rob. Best point here is the nature of his contract; surely there is literally zero point to any contract nuances unless they can mitigate outcomes. If he had a buy out clause fine; we’ll he doesn’t and happily accepted a long term contract with one. Sorry pal. You’re going to have to see this one through or at least at a point where it makes economic sense to sell. I did disagree with Mike’s lack of confidence in any FSG contingencies; surely Keita is part of that and if Goretzka or Lemar land then I would say that’s a fine bit of business.
I’t all good and well to take an old school club stance as Nevin does, however, that is not the reality of today’s game or player. Loyalty to team, word, or contract is all relative when social media, agents, friends and family who are all sucking on the money teet of a star player are looking out for their self interest. Hey Phil, I’ll root for you as long as you are here. When you leave, I’ll turn the page. Just remember, most of the spoiled Catalan crowd can be thin skinned and fickle where turning on a player in the blink of an eye is a common occurrence. As it’s said, be careful what you wish for, you may surely get it
Excellent from Mike Nevin there. I think I agree with near every word. The club showed some balls in the summer, and need to do the same again now. Managing difficulty is part of the job of leading Liverpool FC. Coutinho needs to be told he is going nowhere in January, and we should refuse to discuss the next transfer window until we are there. The appeal of Barcelona/Real Madrid comes from their success, as much as anything else. Let’s have some of that success ourselves and see how the land lies thereafter.
Mike is correct. Good man Michael for clearly outlining our club’s lack of gumption. We should have prevented this.
Gaping holes in Mikes arguement to ‘just pick him and tell him he is playing and going nowhere’:
1. Klopp doesnt want him now after his shenanigans in August.
2. How do you tell a player he isnt playing and is being replaced by a fella who doesnt want to play for the club?
What could and should have been a sensible discussion turned into a non sensical rant from a fan spitting his dummy out.
FWIW, i think PC stays till summer.
Mick just hit the nail on the head, Fire with fire, Barca don’t have money to burn, they gotta sell before they buy so make them sweat. Let them be weakened before we are.
Agree with Mike … He is UNDER CONTRACT … WHY are we allowing him to pick and choose when he downs tools??
I thought I was going to be one of the first to reply to this!
The best pods are always the ones where someone puts there head above the parapet and gives an aposing view.
However I could not agree with Mike on this, you know Phil is not a fan, does not come from Liverpool, he just wants to play for Barca and that is it.
Sure we could say you signed a contract and you are staying but as with any other workplace if you have an individual who is pissed of every 6 months it can bread discontent throughout the group and this manager especially won’t let that happen. just because they have not been able to change his mind does not mean they have tried everything they can to make him stay.
I am a similar age to Mike and thought. my 40 odd years of supporting Liverpool every time a ‘great’ leaves there is major anxiety of how and who is going to replace the player, rightly so.Klopp will know better than anyone that a replacement of equal or even better Quility is essential to maintain this seasons position and next season tilt at the tittle.
This being the case I think Lamar would be fine as long as he is part of a pair , and the other needs to be a mush higher profile signing so Lamar does not feel crushed by the weight of expectation , someone like Racotic, Reus is Sanchez, not going to happen which is where I think you can start asking questions of the Liverpool hierarchy.
Anyway really great pod, great way to kick of 2018
Probably too late but when the club says Phil is under contract etc but ultimately the Call is Klopp’s to make, what else can they do?
Plus, no one mentions Kia Joorabchian who is acting as Phil’s agent, a guy who has a reputation way down in the gutter. (see Tevez and West Ham) and Phil’s other agent is registered in Brazil.
Kia is not registered in England, Spain or Brazil but is willing to have Phil act solely to reward Kia with a big payday. Klopp may just not want to have that sort involved in any deal especially with the effect it has on his squad. Sad.
Mike is totally correct. Ok his argument did not have much substance but it certainly must represent the fundamental basics of contract law. He is under contract so therefore he needs to either agree to play on until they reach an amicable agreement or be severely punished by the club for downing tools. From the outside it looks like the club missed the opportunity to come to an amicable agreement last August and also are reluctant to take a harder stance on his decision to down tools.
What can they do, Mike doesn’t know, but LFC have a team of experts that should know and who are far more qualified than anyone here.
So ultimately everyone on the show said we shouldn’t let Coutinho go this January, that he should finish the season with us. Pretty sure most supporters – wool or otherwise- agree with this.
I’m with Mike here. And why is LFC not reporting Barca for what is obvious tapping up?…yes there may not be too much hope of proving it, and evidence will be hard to come by, but with all of what is going on with that club now, the merest hint of a report being put in will either get them to withdraw and apologise as we had to do, or put a bid in. We know what they’re after, using pressure to get him cheap..report them and keep them honest
Report Barcelona to whom/what for “obvious tapping up”?
This was amazing
The mother of all shows!