After Liverpool’s frustrating 2-2 draw with West Ham United, Neil Atkinson hosts The Anfield Wrap’s post match show.
He is joined by John Gibbons, Carly Murray and Tim Smith to go through what went wrong for Liverpool and what went right. Expect conversation around how Liverpool manage games, how the goalkeeper may or may not be letting his side down and who stood out for The Reds.
It’s another tough result for Liverpool to take and they have now lost 5 points from winning positions in the last two games.
It’s raw, it’s immediate. It’s The Pink.
I think age as a defense is one of the most hypocritical things in football, I keep seeing people say don’t criticise Karius he’s only 23, but I don’t remember anyone using this for 19 year old Sterling and 20 year old Ibe, last season. For me age shouldn’t matter you’re either good enough or you’re not and Karius isn’t good enough.
You were probably saying the same about Firmino, Henderson, Can, Matip ad infinitum at some point last week or last year.
Henderson yes the others no but go on
Spot on mate. If you’re 2-0 up then you can give young lads experience. If you’re struggling badly with injuries then you may need young lads to stand in. Either way, I personally wouldn’t criticise them. But, if someone is playing as a first 11 player then they have to be good enough. I’ve said a million times before on here, we’re not a YTS scheme. We’re not giving out apprenticeships to young people to come and play in goal for us. It’s bullshit. He’s not good enough regardless of age.
Much improved pod over last week. Prefer this realism to head in the sand / bombast.
I ask myself why I feel the need to comment and whereas I feel I have an answer for most things in my head I don’t have one for this one. I’ve already had 4 hours of this with mates on our forum and whereas they’ve logged of to be normal I feel like I haven’t started. Odd.
Like last week I want to comment before I listen to avoid being swayed and ridiculously, I want to make the same points but with one new one.
We have to stop this debate now of ‘all of a sudden Mignolet hasn’t become better’ and ‘he hasn’t cost us points’. Sorry, but both are false. Mignolet is a far safer pair of hands whether he’s wank or not. Lovren worries the whole defence and we looked better all over the back once Klavan came on. Perhaps a bit unfair on Lovren today. The second goal was a combination of Henderson and Matip errors but you need your keeper to bail you out sometimes. It was a feeble attempt and adds to the reality that he’s very worrying. Klopp has a big dilemma.
Yes, Origi scores, he’s young and he’s undoubtedly good but surely, swapping positions with Firmino helps the balance of the team. Origi was pretty static at times. In fact, that’s not fair, in the second half he was right across the front. I think it’s the crosses that worried me. Held back a bit too much.
More than that, I think the midfield is stifled with Origi as the number 9. I understand the need to get the ball wide but we’ve done better playing it through the middle. Little touches and flicks that have opened defences.
My new point is, and this isn’t because I’m pissed off, Clyne’s end product needs to improve. It was pretty poor today and I’ve thought it for a while.
I suppose it’s natural when we lose to look at reinforcements and although I think the squad is strong we’re definitely lacking as well. All of a sudden it looked weak today. I suppose I’m pissed off that Sturridge isn’t fit. He’s been fit for a while now but when we need him he isn’t. I’m close to wanting to call it a day but when I look at Chelsea with Batshuayi and City with Iheanacho, good player, but it makes me realise there’s a shortage of strikers. We need a winger. If today is anything to go by we’re gonna miss Mane. We need a centre half too though that’s not a reflection of today. Had we not lost Coutinho things could look so different today. We certainly need one more up there somewhere.
Apologies, just remembered we didn’t lose today.
Ill take Clyne’s solid 8/10 consistent performances any day than blaming his lack of finishing when there are 5-6 attackers on the pitch more than capable of getting the goals for us. Shortage of strikers? We’ve only started with a proper striker for only 4-5 games this season. Lovren has been great until today. Had a bad day.
Sorry mate, don’t agree with any of this. I know Clyne has been solid but I think 8/10 is going a bit over the top. My point wasn’t about his finishing. I mentioned his end product not his finishing. What that means is a lot of our play comes through the full backs Milner and Clyne but whereas things happen when Milner gets it I’m starting to notice Clyne does nothing with it. In simple terms he’s not creating chances for us. It’s promising in the build up then fizzles out.
Yes, shortage of strikers. I class Sturridge as a striker. My point was simple. Is it time (in the summer) to replace Sturridge? On the one hand he kicks the ball in the net a lot but on the other he’s not that reliable but ultimately there’s a shortage of replacements around hence why no team in the Prem has adequate coverage for their striker. Not sure what your issue is with that. If Sturridge was sold we’d have to replace him with someone who scores goals whatever terminology you use to describe them.
If you think Lovren’s been great till today then me and you see the game very differently. Was he great last week at Bournemouth? Was he great against Palace last month? Was he great for Burnley’s goals with Klavan where his positioning was poor and he put his hands behind his back and did a weird turn. Very similar to the week before at Arsenal for Chamberlains goal. Matip came in and we had a run of games where teams didn’t attack us. Karius kept clean sheets and Lovren was error free for once, admittedly but to say he’s been great is utter fuckin lunacy.
I think you’ve hit most points on the head there Robin.
I was one of many at the start of the season happy with what seemed to be a squad with depth. However, at the risk of sounding like a smart arse given the benefit of hindsight, I still thought we were short of a ‘goalscorer’.
Many Reds I know thought it was a mad statement considering how our depth appeared on paper. But my point was based exactly on what we have now, a multitude of injuries up top. I like Ings and I like Sturridge, but with Ings coming off a very lengthy lay off and Sturridge being totally unreliable when it comes to his availability, I thought we needed a bit more. Now that would have meant a lot of competition for places and I don’t claim to have the solution to this but I was always weary.
Don’t get me wrong I thing our first choice 3 this season have been great, and have contributed a more than satisfactory amount goals so far considering I wouldn’t consider them ‘proper strikers’, but I feel we are looking a bit flat at times since the last international break. I definitely feel Firmino should be central, played anywhere else he still works his socks off but offensively he’s most effective there. I feel Origi can run those channels well played on the left and give us a bit of another dimension. He’s raw and at times a head-scratcher but he scores too so it’s a funny one to analyse. His goal against Sunderland came from the left, although he just happened to end up that side of the pitch, but he can offer us that from there I feel.
Away from this I share everyone’s frustration. The last 4 games since the international break we’ve definitely hit a wobble, the first we’ve had since Burnley and Spurs where dropped points are concerned. Even our solitary win v Sunderland was hard graft, we weren’t great on the day but their tactics may have had something to do with that, most teams would struggle against their defensive lines that day. Having said that, despite the wobble we’re 6 off the top. Not a disaster but it can only be rectified by getting back to winning ways pronto.
I don’t want to sound like a smart arse either but when I looked at our strikers in the summer I could see we weren’t going to add another one but I did say Ings could be replaced with a better option. Obviously difficult given that he was only a month back from a serious injury but someone in the Prem would pay £6m for him. Absolutely no doubt. I really like the guy and think he’s a good player but whether fit or not I thought there was potential for an upgrade. At the same time he and us have just been unlucky. I still fancy he to score goals and would play him before Origi if fit.
Certainly not a disaster mate but all things considered the last 8 days have been thoroughly disappointing and largely because it was all very avoidable.
Origi playing centrally is just not quite there. He’s scoring and all but he just isn’t useful in the build up. Rather have Firmino in the middle both on offense and defense b/c Origi cannot do that job.
Klopp has eyes and ears. Maybe he yanks Karius, maybe not but if frustration comes from thinking we win the league this season, get the Prozac out. Ain’t happening and not b/c of Karius.
(8 games before last 2, gave up 6 goals. But it’s all in the here and now)
Agreed. Firmino is much better in the middle. As to defending — generally too weak in mentality, focus, and ability.
It is frustrating but I’m with Carly for the majority as in where we are and what everyone said we would be any LFC would give there left leg for at the start of the season. I’m not sure it’s complacency as any previous leads we’ve had we’ve tried to go out and control the game and somewhat protect the lead, maybe due to the oppositions fear, but perhaps in today’s game and as well as last week the opposition have turned up and pressed harder or tried to be more braver and got at our defense?
Maybe this could be a Tuesday review discussion for Sean Rogers with Karius’s positioning for the free kick? As an ex keeper, it was less riskier to invite an opponent to shoot for one particular spot to give yourself a better chance at saving the free. In this case Payet happen to hit the only spot Karius couldn’t reach but it’s better than giving two areas to shoot at. Karius may have been instructed by Achterberg for this position.
maybe a little harsh on Karius as he’s out of form or needs more time. Maybe he’ll turn into a De Gea because De Gea started his EPL career badly but giving Karius a rest and using Mignolet might be the thing Karius needs.
It should always always always be enough to win when we score 2 at home and 3 away (even 2 away should be more than enough). Something is still rotten in the defense (back 4-6) and the general mentality about defending, and it is due to more than just the goalkeeper.
Perhaps conceding a (needless) free kick on the edge of the area with Payet on the opposition was the root cause of all this.
I know it was a frustrating game but to bury the keeper doesn’t help anyone John… ha ha
Made me laugh though.
Seriously the point I wanted to make was about the crowd.
We were sat in 3rd place when that game kicked off.
The team has largely been great this season so far.
We had a poor result against Bournemouth and so I expected the crowd to really get behind the team yesterday.
To show them that we are fully behind the team(and the way we play) regardless of the last result.
And the crowd was loud when we scored our goals.
And for about 5 mins after we scored the goals the crowd was proper loud.
And then it went quiet.
This team, because of the results it’s had so far this season deserved to have a loud crowd for the whole game regardless of what was happening in the game itself.
The atmosphere, in my opinion was akin to a Hodgson or Rodgers team struggling and not sat in the top 4 with more than 2 pts per game so far.
Please don’t take it the wrong way. I am not saying our fans are rubbish ,crap never sing, not proper fans etc etc.
Just in isolation, I don’t understand why a team looking like it may have a great season was not supported vociferously through the whole game.
I might be talking shite but that was what it felt like.
Great debate as always.
Still think the lads were a bit harsh on Karius today. I don’t think he’s good enough for us, but he perhaps made a mistake on the first goal (up against one of the best free kick takers in the PL) and was left one-on-one for the second due mainly to an unlucky deflection. I don’t see how he can do any more than he did for that. Do I think he’s good enough for us? Probably not as he’s conceding too many preventable goals, but we quickly seem to be getting to the point where he’s blamed for every one that goes in.
playing fantasy football doesn’t work! Sort out centre mid Henderson Can is anything but perfect but least there slightly defensive minded. I stopped writing on this cuase I thought I was getting obsessed with defensive mid but when you go to games like this I think I’m proved right .Also when you play such a offensive team
you’ve got no where to go when things go tits up Please buy a c/mid in jan Jurgan especially if your keeping that Keeper. All I want for Christmas to quote Rafa is to be compact
lets be honest he might as well of been stood in the chippy over the road for that free kick he was that far over. There’s a point where I don’t even think you need a wall just stand in the middle of the goal, it’s a 30 yard penalty. He’s not doing us any favours at the moment in digging a few points out.
The wider concern for me is how the team knock off completely, both last week and yesterday for significant parts of the game. We’ve lost the “Go again” edge.
I prefer not to dress this up as anything other than shite, Bournemouth & West Ham are shite & we’ve been shite.
I’m not one for the idea of selling sturridge this window but I’m glad we’ve moved on from him, you can’t build anything around him. Next summer I’d be happy to move on and let some other clubs physio look after him. It’s a shame but the lads made of glass, yes he’ll do a job for someone but he’s a luxury and Klopp was right to build a new attacking line up.
Karius was not at fault for either goal. Lallana should not have given away a free kick in that position in the first place. The wall didn’t jump and those who did separated! The second goal, why was Matip beaten when he was inside Antonio. Karius was moving to the right and tried to get something to the ball. It’s a team effort. You attack as an 11 and defend as an 11! Firmino’s head is down. Wilnadum is trying too hard. Lovren looks lost, even with Matip next to him. Mane was disorganised and tried to save the world. Klopp again not making subs when it’s obvious he needs to make one. One man doesn’t make a team, but again we’ve fallen foul to making one player the key to our success. Coutinho should be an added bonus to the team and not the lynch pin!! Karius by no means is faultless but then neither are the other 10, that’s 10 players on the field.
we take the foot of the pedal. LFC are capable of going 5 up if they keep the tempo up. we dont we go to sleep.
Karius may well be a good keeper in time but he’s not playing well at all right now. Stupid Lallana foul to give Payet the opportunity aside, most keepers in the Prem save that free kick (including West Ham’s keeper). Plenty would have saved it in the lower leagues too.
Am an ex-keeper and goalkeeping coach, and imho, first of all Karius’s set up is ludicrous. If he steps two feet to his right he can still never be beaten to his left and he saves the Payet shot in his sleep.
Secondly, having got there, his wrist is weak and he ought to keep it out anyhow.
On the second goal as I saw the danger develop I was sure we’d be ok, fully expecting Karius to storm out and clear the fella out, man, jack and ball. If he’d been decisive he’d have got to the ball earlier (at the very latest – at the same time exactly) than the attacker and that means only one person gets hurt. And it’s not the keeper.
The fact that he didn’t come for the ball speaks volumes for his total lack of confidence. He doesn’t even react particularly well to the weak shot either as it trickles weakly past his Schmeichel starfish. It’s a total shambles. Once confidence has gone it has gone, and takes time to come back. We cannot afford to hope he gets that show-stopping save to make that raises his levels – because if he doesn’t make that save – and that’s the likelier scenario – he, and LFC, go deeper into the mire.
Other than that we played just fine and ought to have won easily, despite us lacking a bit of PhilCo’s spark. It was a 7/10 performance and with a proper half-decent solid goalkeeping performance we win 2-0 or 2-1.
This club has suffered for half a decade with poor goalkeepers – and I’ll include Pepe in that time-frame as he was mediocre for many months before he was bombed out. It’s such an unbelievable key position that we cannot afford to allow this situation of having ok-to-actually-complete-sh1te keepers to continue.
With a Cech / Lloris / Hart / de Gea / Courtois-type in goal in ’13 / ’14, we would have won the Prem.
Time it got sorted.