THE AFTERNOON after Liverpool drew at home with Norwich, host Neil Atkinson is joined by Adam Smith, John Gibbons, Melissa Reddy off the Tele and Alex Koschier to talk about who was hot and who was not.
They also get into who suited the change in formation, and whether the manager can ever turn around the current feeling in the supporter base.
Direct Link – PODCAST: INGS TO DO AT ANFIELD WHEN YOU’RE BREN
I don’t think its so much Rodgers not being able to change peoples opinions but rather people see him making the same mistakes again…. Signing midtable players for big money, failing to integrate key new signings & the never ending bold tactical changes.
No way the formation vs Norwich was a planned in the summer with the signings in mind. He looks out of his depth & swinging for the fence every week. Completely agree how the sacking made sense in the summer though & not now after the changes.
I’m sure Brendan is leaving no stone unturned in an effort to turn things around and somehow kick-start that elusive momentum that we all desperatley desire.
Clutching at straws here but why dress for a funeral whilst dreaming of a joyous display of creativity and attacking flair ? Brendan, put on a RED tie – at least for our Anfield games !
Melissa used the same Norwich at home with Kenny comparison as I did under Neil’s review and now I feel a right geg. It is frustrating when teams get gifted points at Anfield without having to do much or be any good. Loads of that in 2011/12, Hull and Sunderland last season. That was one of the reasons 2013/14 was so great in that we just cut that shit out and beat the beatable teams like the good sides do. Amazing what it can do for you.
Just on the debate around the manager which looks like it’s gonna go on forever: it would be an unbelievable feat if Brendan somehow turned the tide of fan opinion against him from here but I just don’t see it. It was always going to be this way though.
He must be furious with Mignolet for their shit goal and Coutinho for not squaring it for the tap in; the manager can’t make decisions for players and I thought the shape and personnel were well better. Maybe too little, too late for him in a lot of people’s eyes. After the West Ham debacle he should have played something similar at Old Trafford where he started using his 343 last season. Think he’s had some of the boldness beaten out of him.
Neil was right, it is the job of the ‘co-ordinator’ to manage how long each of the participant speaks at a time, and therefore the amount of time is left to complete the items on the agenda.
Alex was an outstanding ‘new voice’ (even though I disagree with him on Rodgers being so great in developing young players); let’s have him appear on more podcasts.
Clyne played very well, and had no problem with adjusting to playing at WB, imo.
Neil has hit the proverbial nail on the head with regard to Coutinho. He should be our ‘best player’ on the pitch but he should be the ‘provider’, not the person we’re depending on to score worldies in order to get a victory.
Sorry Alex Cannot agree with your analysis of BR making younger players better.
Gomez is Charlton’s success not BR’s, Clyne’s Southamptons, Moreno was a Spain International when he turned up, Sakho PSG Captain & International.
And for all of those you have an Illori, Markovic, Suso etc
Can’t believe that wasn’t challenged tbh
Gotta agree too. We market ourselves as a club where young players will be given a chance to play and we will develop them. Nah……you may be given a chance alright but if you dont hit the ground running in your first season we’ll loan you out elsewhere and then someone else can spend time developing them. Too many examples to mention. Even our Capt. was very nearly sold.
I was trying to work out the 8-10 young players that Rodgers has made better, cant remember which panelist made the statement, but I would like to hear who the players are.
I could only think of Coutinho, Sturridge, Suarez, Sterling, Generously included Luis Suarez in the list.
Dont think you can include Henderson after all he was going to be sent to Fulham, Ibe, jury still out on him. Emre Can, already first team player before he came here, I really am struggling to name anyone else.
I don’t buy into the “TAW are Rodgers apologists” nonsense (and, frankly, think you’d all be better off if you spent less time responding to trolls) but, like most things on Twitter and comment sections, it comes from a kernel of truth that has been blown out of proportion by a bunch of idiots. But there is a kernel of truth. And that’s really negatively impacted these shows. I was so excited to buy TAW Player when it came out, now I feel like listening to the shows are almost a chore I do because I’m paying for it. I only keep subscribing because of some of the great shows that pop up now and then (like the Europa League Unwrapped special which, coincidentally, wasn’t a big show on the manager) and a weird sense of loyalty like with a band you used to love whose recent albums aren’t hitting the spot.
This show was a perfect example. You all agree on Rodgers, fair. But that creates a dichotomy where, based off the contributors you have, you act as if the people who want Rodgers replaced (as, admittedly, I have been since the end of last season) are some fringe minority. Yet, instead of ignoring it as a fringe minority (which you obviously know it isn’t) you spend most of the time addressing that topic. All that does is create a lot of self-congratulatory agreeing, and people making really weak arguments.
The perfect example of the last point is Gibbo’s comment that FSG shouldn’t fire Rodgers because they backed him in the summer. Now, I don’t know John Gibbons, but based on the hours I’ve heard him talking, he seems like not just a smart fellow but a reasonable one. I don’t at all think he’s lying or “being an apologist,” he just has a different opinion than I do. Unfortunately, I also know that he’s making a common reasoning fallacy in that he’s ignoring the concept of sunk costs. If there was someone on the show who held a different opinion they would probably be pointing this out and an interesting discussion would ensue. Instead, everyone agrees and moves on.
I think it also hurts the shows because it really ends up dumbing down the conversation. I’m open to the idea that maybe I’m wrong and Rodgers should be kept. But you’re usually only ever debating strawmen (or trolls from Twitter) and weak opponents tend to make for weak arguments. I would love to hear someone like Neil, who is clearly an ardent Rodgers supporter, actually discuss this with someone who is both intelligent and holds a different opinion. But we don’t get that, and that’s the problem. And somehow, despite having this awesome lineup of contributors, these shows feel less than the sum of their parts. When you get something like the Unwrapped show on modern football (not trying to be a Guttman fanboy, it’s just a coincidence) where people are going on digressions and disagreeing and making me think and reconsider my opinions, well, that’s the kind of show that makes me upset when I finish my commute because I want to listen to more. I want more of that! Not “That’s another great point about why the manager shouldn’t be fired! Here’s why some idiot on Twitter is wrong.”
Sorry for such a long (probably rambling) comment and I’m not trying to insult any of the TAW contributors. But some of the shows lately have been so below your normal standard I’ve gotten legitimately angry at them and considered unsubscribing. When TAW is good it’s SO FUCKING GOOD. I just want more of that.
So, in sum, you think that anyone suggesting TAW is pro-Rodgers is a troll or an idiot, but then complain in detail about another show on TAW being pro-Rodgers? Strange.
I agree completely with your opinion on this show and I’dd add the criticisms you’ve made are not just inherent in the podcasts, but in many articles too. Maybe that’s why so many think TAW is (or has been for a year) pro-Rodgers? Just a thought Dan.
Wow, a new debate here. We’re pro-Rodgers are we, yeah? Zzzzzzzzz.
Well, when people like Dan, who doesn’t believe you have been pro-Rodgers (timescale is important here), is making detailed criticisms of this show and ties it to why there are so many that think that to be the case, then maybe there is an issue?
You could address Dan’s on-the-money criticisms, or the observation by Paul below of some disingenuous editing. You could reply to comments by Brad and Frankie on the Tiago Ilori article. You might think why so many different people all think TAW has been pro Rodgers for too long.
The concerning thing should be that the people speaking up are not idiots or trolls – they are long time readers, listeners and commenters who have been positive about TAW for ages. But maybe you aren’t concerned and for good reason – none of this may have any bearing whatsoever on your bottom line. That may well be the case and you’d clearly know more about that than me, so happy days if it doesn’t and profits are soaring.
It’s great that you put so much time into making these points, Michael, but as I’ve pointed out before I’m the only person moderating the comments on the website and I simply don’t have time to sit here all day replying. If individual authors wish to reply that is their prerogative. I’m not in a position to make them reply. Also quite what am I supposed to be addressing? All the stuff you have so meticulously presented is people basically saying they have read things that don’t represent their own opinion on something. And that’s fine. Because both show and site (see today’s posts, or yesterday’s, or post-Stoke for examples) have presented the opposite view on Rodgers. I’m not sure what the supposed ‘problem’ is or what we are supposed to be concerned about. Everyone who contributes to the site and the podcasts is a Liverpool fan. They want Liverpool to win. They write and speak honestly. And that’s it. That’s completely it. If we were sitting here with a team of paid editorial staff, briefing them on a TAW line and producing content accordingly I could understand the *constant* need to bring this up. But that isn’t the case. We’re an independent fan-produced website and podcast, mate. And one to which anyone is welcome to pitch a contribution. If it’s well written, and well argued, we use it. And I’m fine with that as a policy, as it seems are the rest of the people involved.
Thanks for these replies Gareth. They make sense and let us see how difficult running TAW is, especially when/if you want a mesh of opinions on the shows. Two quick points though:
Your point about these comments “basically saying they’ve read something that doesnt represent their opinion” – in Brad’s comment he explicitly states he doesn’t mind articles he disagrees with but there were simply so many in such a short space of time all saying the same thing, i.e. The fans need to stop complaining and give Rodgers another chance. He asks for more variety. Obviously things have changed since September 6th so like me he’s probably happier with the variety since. But reading such comments might give you an idea of why so many thought TAW was pro-Rodgers for so long (which would lead me to be concerned with perception of TAW if this is not the case but lots think it is) even though you and Dan below have given perfectly good reasons for that.
In response to Dan below you appear to recognise shows would be a lot more interesting if people disagreed (it would also be more representative of the entire fanbase, although Im unsure if that is a target) but you can’t guarantee it because you cannot vet opinions of those before you record. But surely you can? Surely you know some of these people socially (aren’t 5/6 of you mates?) and the rest by their opinions on twitter etc? I get that sometimes it wouldnt be practical to always have different viewpoints represented by people who actually believe them (and not just stated by a devils advocate to give an opposing view) on every show, but on the more shows the better.
Finally, I think what TAW is, is very good on the whole. There are peaks and troughs in terms of quality but with something this ambitious that was always going to be the case. I wouldn’t want you to think I or pretty much anyone else moan for the sake of it. You’ll have seen me praise many articles in the last 2 weeks and I’ll point out if something can be improved too. I’d say that is pretty fair minded. And like Dan said, everything would be so much more fun if we started winning again or we had sonething else to get excited about.
Sorry, forgot to add the aforementioned comments:
6 September 2015 at 6:29 pm
Ok, enough already, please, we get it. That’s three articles in three days from Melissa Reddy, Mike Nevin, and now Paul Little basically about fans short term thinking and to stop blaming Rodgers. How about a little variety? Or at least space out your similarly themed articles. Really enjoyed Gibbons loan piece. I don’t mind articles I disagree with, I lie a good debate. But I’d rather read a case study about grass growing speed at Melwood than another “give Rodgers a chance” article.
Fact is Rodgers lost a lot of credibility between all the transfer disasters, questionable player decisions, and devastating losses since May 2014. You can keep writing an article a day about how things aren’t his fault, but the only way he’s getting support back is by winning.
I understand it isn’t only has fault, but we can’t fire the owners or the transfer committee, and we have to be close to out of players we can loan away. (Didn’t realize we had the 2nd most behind Chelsea, thanks JG)
And stop with the “Rodgers doesn’t deserve it” or “it’s not fair to him”. That guy already received more money than most of us will earn over a lifetime to win football matches. No one cares what he deserves or is fair. The only question should be is he the best man for the job.
6 September 2015 at 6:50 pm
I’ve no objection to yet another piece defending Rodgers, but this is pretty desperate. The debate as such revolves around a bizarre and expensive transfer ‘strategy’ that does the club no good whatsoever. It doesn’t really matter who wanted Ilori, the point is he is yet another signing who has either turned out to be a complete waste of money either because he is not good enough or we cannot give him games. What is obvious is that our committe with Rodgers as final arbiter has no clear picture of the direction the club is headed for – if any direction that is. Ilori has been badly served by joining us and must be wondering what he’s done wrong to go from securing the club’s future “for 10 years” to being an unwanted, unplayed squad player in just two years. Whether it’s Rodgers fault or not, messing with another young lad’s career is unacceptable and does not reflect well on the club.
I’m not hopeful you’ll get an opportunity to read this, both because it’s late and you’re probably quite busy, but I wanted to respond to a point you made in your longer comment below.
What I (and I bet others) would like is to make an effort to include more people who disagree on the shows. Like I said in my other comment, the fella from that other show, I don’t recall hearing him much since then. Or back in the spring there was an article on here that was the best thought out and reasoned “should Rodgers stay or go” article I’ve read anywhere. I’d love to hear that author on a show.
I don’t think you’re intentionally sitting in a dark room and saying “This person doesn’t love Brendan? Fuck him! He’s not on any shows.” (Though if you are, start putting that on Periscope, I bet it’s hilarious). But I also don’t think you’re intentionally sitting in a (well lit?) room and saying “Who can we find that will bring a different perspective?” Because that would make the shows better.
Back in the spring, someone (my memory is shit, sorry) kept using the phrase, when discussing FSG “if there’s more than one person in the room agreeing, they don’t need to be in the room” (or something to that effect). But that’s what 90% of the LFC focused shows have become. And it’s not limited just to Rodgers. More and different opinions make things better.
I think there’s a fine distinction in my comments. I don’t say they don’t tend to be pro-Rodgers, but I don’t believe that they’re a bunch of Rodgers apologists. The former means that they have different opinions than I (now) hold, which is fine. The latter means that they’re intentionally altering their opinions to promote an agenda, which is not good.
Another example would be a lot of the contradictory opinions you here. Against Bournemouth, what mattered was the result. Against Norwich (as heard on the Pink), what mattered was the performance. Or the way Neil spent all summer banging on about goals and wanting to win the league and now those words don’t come out of his mouth. I don’t think that’s part of some calculated plan to make BR look good, or some sort of editorial edict. I think it’s because they love their club, want to be positive, and a lot of times that involves defending the manager. It’s not sinister, in fact it’s probably unconscious.
The antidote to all this is pretty simple, and I’ll say it again, it’s just have someone on who disagrees. There was either a Pink or a normal podcast back in the spring, after one of the many disappointing results (I believe it was an early Melissa Reddy appearance and the one where Gibbo coined “Raheem Sterling doesn’t know where the goal is”) where one of the contributors (whose name I forget) was much more down on the performance and actively arguing with Neil at times. That was great, if nothing else, because it allowed me to exercise both psychic sides of fandom (I love this team and I love them enough they make me angry) as opposed to just one.
I think that’s an example that they’re not Rodgers apologists, and although they probably are pro-Rodgers it’s because they’re pro-LFC and that’s how they express their fandom. If there was more diversity of viewpoint, it wouldn’t come off that way.
The thing with this Dan, it again comes down to the reality of running this (and how difficult it is). FWIW, I read out your earlier comment to the other lads as I appreciate you’re being fair-minded with it. But there’s no way of vetting what opinions people are going to have. We simply invite fans who go the match that we know are comfortable talking on air and are available at the time we are recording to come and say whatever they like. The scheduling for the shows is almost a job in itself, and is done well in advance. There’s no briefing, no advice — the views you hear are the views those people hold. If they want to go mad about something, they can. Sometimes it can all lead to an argument (and then we’ve had feedback that it’s staged… :-/) other times everyone agrees. Not a lot we can do about that, as far as we can work out, lads.
Thanks for the reply. And that makes perfect sense. I completely appreciate how difficult a project this must be and it’s good to even know you’re trying. The shows are so well-done I think it’s hard for a lot of us to remember you’re still a start-up. And, like a lot of things, this will all be more fun if we go back to winning.
Haven’t listened to the whole show yet but did Neil actually read the whole of Rob Guttman’s text? If not it’s disingenuous editing because he added:
This pattern is now a very sustained one. A battling character win vs Man city 6 months ago and a brief cut loose vs Swansea last December aside we haven’t been sent home happy from our home in well over a year.
I was made up with Sturridge. Really encouraged by Ings’ energy and zip. Firmino looked bright and a real talent at last. Sahko was largely imperious and Moreno arguably man of the match.
Things to cling to, but the manager is no longer one of them. I’d like to see the owners show decisive leadership and not repeat the Hodgson fiasco. There’s a salvageable season here. Be bold, be fair, be kind to a lost leader too, but most of all let us at least have Anfield and some hope back.
Nope, the whole text wasnt read out,
I said to myself before a ball was kicked this season I’ll leave it until after our 7 always to see where the season was heading. I was prepared to accept 7 points from those 7 always as long as we won our homes. That’s not quite gone to plan so far but I’ll still wait it out.
I don’t quite get this arguement that it may have been right to sack Rodgers in the summer but not now. Is this for purely financial reasons? If so that’s wrong. If he’s wrong for success on the pitch then surely that stands now too. Nothing has majorly changed results or performance wise to say otherwise.
I’m not advocating his sacking, too early for that, just dont think that reasoning stands up. The players at our disposal are good enough to finish top 4 this season, I believe. It’s how they’re utilised and motivated that’ll be key. That’s down to the manager.
In the pod, Rodgers is talked of as a manager, but he’s really just the first-team coach. I can’t think of any time in our history when we have been ‘less-managed’, nor any ‘less-managed’ club in the current Premier League. He gets no praise or blame for any signings, from me. The business takes place well over his head.
Liverpool look capable of playing badly and losing, playing badly and winning, playing well and losing, but not playing well and winning anymore.
There is still plenty to salvage from this season, if we act with haste. I can’t believe both Ancelotti and Klopp would both turn us down, if we offered the right money. These are both men who are capable of offering a great deal more than a 3-game fillip. Either would represent a major step-up in class.
We have a good squad of players, giving the next man at the helm plenty of scope, in terms of how he wants us to play.
The spite directed towards Rodgers is unfair, but he is in the results game and just isn’t getting them. If any player had performed as badly, over the last 45-50 games, he would be nowhere near the first-team squad so Rodgers should no longer be coaching the first team.
He’s a good man who finds himself now praying for a miracle and it is difficult to see one on the horizon. We are trying to compete at an elite level in the world’s richest and most-competitive sport. We need an elite manager.
Melissa and others have talked about how Arsenal players were lifted, inspired and excited by the signing of Ozil and Sanchez. I’d imagine the bringing in of a manager of the ilk of Klopp or Ancelloti would have a similar affect. Not only that but would be able to attract a higher quality of new recruits also.
@DanT I can’t think of any daily show, newspaper column, etc. that can be relied upon to be brilliant every day. It’s a huge ask for any organisation, especially one operating on a shoestring budget.
I write for a sports-betting website every day. Most of my articles are either bad or mediocre. Occasionally, I put in an inspired performance, but I am a Milner, rather than a Suarez and only have so much marmalade to spread.
To be fair, I would probably earn my corn more if I didn’t spend time contributing to various comments sections on websites like this one. I’m sure the team have other things going on in their lives, as well.
The Taw podcasts cost less than a single cigarette each and most are a great deal more memorable. This is the best online Liverpool fanzine there is, at least for me.
Pretty good podcast.
For TAW: too much time spent on Brendan.
The front-to-back is excellent, but as Neil
alluded to, you went on about Brendan
too long. He is done to death these days.
The front-to-back is a treat – a flyonthewall experience for the many of us who can’t go the game.
For Melissa: I enjoy your viewpoints but let the others speak, you do tend to dominate a bit. Also sometimes come across a little arrogant. Maybe its the accent. Constructive criticism honestly!!!!!
Like everybody said in the podcast nothing is going to change very much like the last days of Hodgson even if Brendan wins a few game as soon as he loses people will be straight on his back seems pointless to be honest.
Good show but, and I mean this constructively, less is more Melissa.
Whilst I think Brendan Rodgers should have been sacked/let go over the summer I agree with John about 13/14. It was a season to be remembered and whilst Suarez was the evil genius behind it, Brendan facilitated that genius creating a perfect environment within which he was able to flourish. Similarly Brendan’s tactics weren’t to blame for the defeat at home to Chelsea: no slip, no loss. We were very comfortable until the slip and no amount of bullshit (yes, I’m looking at you Stevie) about tactical naivety changes that. It’s revisionist shite. We were great and we almost won the league and would have done had a few players not lost their heads and their legs after a long and tiring season Let’s not forget how impressive City were in the run-in to. I still think we should cut our losses, but the first two seasons were really positive, progress stalled last season and the manager’s excuses and political dabblings really haven’t helped his cause. I supported Brendan Rodgers from the off, despite Being Liverpool, because I saw a young, progressive manager playing fearless football. I liked what I heard and I liked what I saw. But that feels like a long time ago now and I can’t see him turning it around so I’d like it to end as quickly and painlessly as possible. He deserves to leave with his dignity intact. There’s a real danger that won’t happen if FSG don’t act soon and the fans will really turn against him. That would be a real shame, and completely unnecessary. I’m not particularly keen on all this ‘apologist’ stuff either. The TAW writers are supporters like the rest of us, they live in the city and get to the match. They’re speaking to an increasing audience and learning along the way. It may be that with power comes a certain amount of responsibility. I think they’ve been pretty balanced and measured.
I don’t think TAW are Rodgers apologists. I think they are just misguided in most of logic. For me, BR needs to leave. I think this because I cannot even imagine that this team under him will finish in the top 6 places. I don’t see it. Just because FSG backed him doesn’t mean he doesn’t need to leave.
This is my question, in all honesty, what would push you over the line into the BR out camp?
In the next few weeks LFC have 5 PL games Villa(H), Everton(A), Tottenham(A), Southampton(H), and Chelsea(A). What is a minimum point haul from these games? Without using your imagination you wouldn’t be surprised if turned out to be 4 or 5 points. If LFC are sitting on 12-13 points at the end of October it will look pretty bleak. Or would you be willing to stick with him until Christmas?
I think the Young Player Guru card is also overplayed. He used Smith at Chelsea not because he has faith in young players but because he was making a point. There were other options more likely to change that game for us but Rodgers chose to be political
Other youngsters ( some costing several million pounds ) have not been given a chance. Gomez is not a product of Rodgers coaching, it’s partly due to most LFC fans knowing very little about him and also the player taking advantage of the lack of quality at left back.
Using young players in positions that aren’t their first choice isn’t new and for the last 18 months or so it’s been as indicative of the poor squad planning and signings as it has Rodgers belief in young players.
I know Gibo would see a managerial change now as proof positive that FSG are making this up as they go but it might be simply realising they made a mistake. Many will have praised Rafa for selling Keane only months after signing him in the first place.