Neil, Rob, Andy, Jim, Steve, Mike Nevin and Dan Fiztsimmon are joined by Chris Maguire as they argue the old point gained v two dropped chestnut and whether Steven Gerrard could be better used?
Direct link to PODCAST: THE GERRARD CONUNDRUM
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Thanks again for another great podcast. You were very light on the disgraceful treatment of Rafa by his new team fans. That was a case where the overused c word may have been entirely appropriate. By comparison I almost like the man. ure, whose games I only watch if I know they have lost or are against us. it is like Rafa is doing a series of reality tv, having to put up with an aural diet of arseholes and bellends. I hope the money is good and it puts Guardiola off going there – they are mates supposedly.
Martin Samuel: “I’ll tell you what Suarez is, you wanna know what Suarez is? He’s a faggot rat… And that’s why he shouldn’t win player of the year.”
Suarez is one of the only players I’m happy to pay to see. Pure entertainment and absolute class. If Messi had scored that goal against Newcastle then it would have gone viral on You Tube. Suarez is a genius and a true gent.
I’d like to ask the TAW contributors what they think ‘time’ is. I know it’s a cliche but when Ferguson took over at Old Trafford they’d had a similar kind of barren spell as we’ve had. As everyone knows it took 6 years to win the league. Rodgers has had 4 months and I believe I’m seeing signs of improvement. We’re unbeaten in 8 now (I seem to recall Ferguson did that in his few seasons – stopped them getting beat, although they had too many draws). We were robbed of victory at Everton, unlucky not to win at Chelsea and could easily have beaten a decent Swansea side at the Liberty where only one team has been there and won this season. Chelsea didn’t achieve a win and in fairness they only got beat 1-0 away at City.
I know it’s all ifs, buts and maybe’s but the point is – for a team who (as you lot constantly point out) have lost 1 in 3 over the past few seasons, unbeaten in 8 is progress. We’ve also had 4 clean sheets in our last 7 PL games. The next step is to score more than opponents and win the game. Well again, we all know why we’re not scoring as many as we need to. If we do strengthen in January and then again in the summer then I’m confident we can get in the top 4 next season – that being the next important milestone. Then spend a couple of seasons consolidating being a CL team and then maybe challenge for the title. That’s the best we can hope for considering how low the club sunk in the last few years
I know we all harbor desires to make the CL this season (and as it stands it’s far from out of the question) but I seem to recall everyone spouting off in the summer how Rodgers needs time. It seems to me that in reality you’re not prepared to give it him. I think it was Rob G who gave an opinion that we didn’t do too badly on Sunday but the negativity seeping into the rest of the contributors answers (even if, as i suspect, it’s not intentional) suggests you don’t think we are progressing.
Here’s my opinion. If we turn a couple of these draws into wins then we’ll definitely be challenging for fourth. If we don’t make it then I’m confident we will next year. From my point of I’m going to enjoy this season without the high level of expectation I normally have (as do other fans, hence LFC fans have become bitter angry heads who moan like fuck). I’m enjoying seeing the youth and over time that will only benefit the squad.
So, my question to anyone who cares to answer is, where do you think LFC should be after Rodgers first 4 months?
I cannot argue with anything you have said here, common sense really, In dangerously short supply among Liverpool fans at the moment though.
Top of the league Robin, according to some idiot armchair supporters! Those tools to my nut in. It alwaya amazes me that some of our ‘fans’ seem to forget just how recently it was that we almost went under.
Continuity is the key. Let Rodgers get some players in over the next few transfer windows, and ship out the dross. It’s a marathon, not a sprint. I just wish those tool ‘fans’ would realise that.
Just about to listen to the podcast but how about we put Gerrard right back? Wisdom is injured and Downing is doing nothing at left back so me personally i would put Johnson left and Gerrard right! He just doesnt suit the system and can not chase back at all! He isnt a goal threat apart from penalites/free kicks but even Saurez is taking them now!
reina
gerrard-skertel-agger-johnson
henderson-lucas-allen
sterling-saurez-enrique
To me, two things are clear about Gerrard:
1) He is doing exactly as he is told by Rodgers
2) Rodgers is playing Gerrard in the wrong position…
… only a fool would constantly drive a Ferrari at 30 mph … only a fool would play one of the world’s finest attacking midfielders in a sedentary midfield position…whilst the team is struggling to fucking score !!!!! Arggh !!
There I’ve said it… that’s right… I’m gonna say it again… I’m sick of Rodgers’ team selection… No doubt TAW will ignore this.. the fucking ‘Positive Mafia’ !!
But what do you gain by being so negative about everything? Can you not see that Rodgers is here for the next 2 seasons at least? Can you not see that we’re a goal scorer short of being a top 4 side? The players are happy at the minute. They’re signing new contracts. They’re telling the press. They feel we’re a work in progress but have goals that they believe we can reach. It’s a shame you don’t have any faith. On the plus side though it gives you something to moan about with your mates on a Saturday night.
Are you sure Gerrard’s doing exactly as he’s told? I’m not sure if his ostensible lack of hunger to track back in recent games is what’s being asked of him. I do think Rodgers should tell him to get up there with Suarez and forget his defensive duties (as was often the case under Benitez) but Henderson seemed to be the most advanced man in the last game and Gerrard played a deep role, odd one.
Either way, it’s been a strangely encouraging season in my eyes, we’ve played very well in a number of games which we should have undoubtedly won and also deserved to win a few a more in the ones where we weren’t quite up to scratch. Apart from the mini spell at the start of the second Dalglish reign this is the most up beat I’ve been as a supporter for a while and long may it continue.
I will say that I agree with those that are calling for Sterling to get a rest against Spurs, I’d bring in Suso, who perhaps should have come on against Swansea and introduce Sterling later on if needed, he’s been non stop in the last month including the England game and at times it seems to be slowly burning him out.
And lastly, Chelsea fans have no idea how lucky they are ending up with Rafa but I can also completely understand their scourn, he’s a hate figure to them of recent times and Abramovich has ignored all their protestations and given him the job (replacing a real fans favourite). Would have been a bit similar I think (but still much worse) to us giving the job to ‘Arry Redknapp instead of Rodgers after King Kenny, so perhaps we should just ignore it and let them get on with it. I hope Rafa turns it around, gives them a great lesson in management and then leaves them in the summer for a high profile job on the continent.
Gerrard is no longer a Ferrari.
Joint highest number of assists in the PL this season (with Suarez and Enrique),
second most shots per game (after Suarez and his insane number of shots),
more tackles per game than any other midfielder,
more clearances per game than any other midfielder,
more key passes per game than any other player in the squad,
second highest number of passes per game (after Allen).
If you ask me, Rodgers would be mad to drop Steven Gerrard.
(Stats taken from http://www.whoscored.com/)
Only checked the assists as I didn’t think it was right.
Gerrard doesn’t appear on the list.
http://sillyseason.com/football/premier-league/premier-league/articles/premier-league-top-assists-1
If you do click the link you need to wait 5 seconds before the list appears.
Firstly can I just say, pull your chins up boys! I have loved listening to you guys over the past year or so, but your negativity in recent weeks has been getting very depressing and if it keeps up I can see myself gradually tuning out (please don’t take this as some sort of weak threat, rather some constructive criticism). As Rob says week after week as a way of damning Rodgers with faint praise, “out of context, that wasn’t a bad result” (Rob, sorry, but the tone you use when you say that really shits me). But surely if every game for the last 8 haven’t been “bad results” then the context is that we are actually doing okay? It is not like we are up and down the ups are just okay and the downs are woeful. We have been solidly okay for the last couple of months, so to my mind that is a big improvement over the absolute dross that was served up for the majority of last season (I remember us at home to Swansea last season, and they absolutely dominated us).
The fixture list has been pretty harsh on us for the start of the season and we have come through most of it pretty much unscathed. So if we beat the teams we should in the lead up until Christmas (which unlike last season we have been doing) we will have a good platform to launch an attack on fourth. Actually placing our results into the true context of the season, in that we are recovering from a terrible end to last season, learning a new system from a new manager who had no preseason to speak of, and all this with only one striker without a proper defensive mid, then I think the results we have been getting are remarkable.
Now on to the content of the podcast. I, like everyone else, have loved watching Steven Gerrard play. He more than anyone else embodies Liverpool football club to me. The vision, passion, skill and inspiration is what you watch football for. So I say this with great sadness (not least as I am the same age) but I think we can all agree that his time has come. I disagree with Rob (not for the first time) that his performances are dipping, it seems to me that he has been playing at exactly the same level the whole season and if anything actually improving as he learns Rodgers system better. I also don’t think that it is his fitness that is the issue as he keeps up a fairly consistent level throughout the game. I would put my money and some I borrowed from my friend on it being some kind of chronic injury, most likely his back, that is restricting his mobility and dynamism. He is only 32 (which is not that old!) so fitness really shouldn’t be that much of a problem, and the fact that he has lost all power in his shots suggests that it is something more than that I reckon.
Unfortunately though playing in the midfield without his former dynamism really shows up the biggest weakness in his game, which is is positioning, particularly without the ball. However, I disagree that Rodgers can simply put him up on the wing or on the apex of midfield and this will solve the problem because in Rodger’s system these positions probably require an ability to press even more than he does currently (as it is he can kind of go missing on the far side). Like someone suggested in the podcast, I have been secretly hoping for some kind of injury to put him out of action for a while so Rodgers can experiment with a different set up because I don’t think as things currently stand Rodgers can actually drop him. Partly because Steven Gerrard is a proud man and I can see him going quietly mental sitting on the bench if he thinks he can be playing but perhaps even more because the majority of fans would go absolutely mental (hopefully no dog shit in his letter box though;). As Neil points out, fans are not rational and neither should they be, but as the whole debacle with Dalglish proved, when we as fans idolise a single player more than the rest of the team combined we are going to get ourselves into trouble, and we are now paying the price for that. Like it or not Carragher and Gerrard seem to wield quite a bit of political power at the club (Benetiz’s exit anyone) and I think Rodgers is wise to humour them and let everyone keep their dignity until they retire soon (hopefully).
Last couple of things, I thought Downing was great at left back in the first half. Say what you like about his courage but he is probably the best technician at the club and he allows us to play out from the back on both sides with Johnson, which is really important for Rodger’s system IMO. Going forward he was okay and I was actually a lot more worried defensively when Enrique went back there (the guy just has so many mistakes in him). Finally, thought you guys should have been jumping up and down for joy with how well Reina played, so happy for him. Came when he had to, got a few timely punches in, got behind all their shots well, and distributed with true class. Seems as though we have got our world class keeper back! Coupled with our world class defensive mid just around the corner and hopefully a world class striker or two in January and teams will be very worried to see us coming in 2013! Onwards and upwards boys!
I have no doubt that the TEAM will be better off without Stevie starting, for reasons that have been well documented throughout recent podcasts, however BR faces an incredibly difficult and delicate situation in how to ease such a proud and loved player out of a regular first 11 spot. Even more so than the situation which KD found himself in with Carra last season. It will be interesting to see stevies role after the return of Lucas and the addition (hopefully) of one or two new faces in January
Robin,
You see that’s the problem. You can’t have an honest debate about LFC (that’s what I love about football – different opinions) without someone pulling the ‘Have Faith’ card or ‘You’re Negative’ card.
This is a fan site, one of the best in the country, this is the appropriate place to have an honest debate with out some fans trying to score points byclaiming to be the ultimate LFC fan through the wind and the rain, etc.
I’ve read loads of crap about Gerrard recently. I know what I saw. When Pepe was injured Rodgers spoke with Gerrard, and Gerrard looked to be really listening, concentrating, on what Rodgers was saying. My point is: I think it’s a game plan, but a poor game plan. If you asked every manager in the league about Gerrard I’m sure they’d all say he is being played out of position.
Therefore, Rodgers needs to BUCK (no pun intended !) up his ideas. And, as for the ‘work in progress’ and ‘get behind the manager, he’s here for long term’. Well I don’t think it’s that simple. I want him to be the best Liverpool manager, but this is a results business. I’m just concerned that he can’t see the obvious, and I’m getting sick of his ’emperor’s new clothes’ style of communication.
Anyway, Spurs tomorrow. Another dodgy manager we could have had…. rant over. Thank you and good night.
Appreciate your reply mate. Believe me, it didn’t feel like I was the ultimate fan last season when I didn’t think we were progressing in the league under Kenny and made it known. To be honest it doesn’t feel like I’m supporting them through the wind and the rain either at the minute. In mitigation, I run a kids football team on a Saturday morning and it takes a lot out of me but the amount of times I’m selling my ticket this season hardly makes me a die hard.
The real reason I’m selling my ticket, though, is that I’m going off going to Anfield. I never leave there feeling like I’ve enjoyed it. Ok, this is a bit too much sentimentality (and the team were incredible) but I remember standing on the Kop as a young lad in the early 80’s. I remember the electricity in the air and the anticipation of catching one of those balls the players used to kick at us. I never did by the way. Nowadays I find it a bit boring if I’m honest. I can’t take the moaning around me anymore. I’ve passed the point of no return and I’m putting my energies into attempting to humiliate the whingers wherever I come across them.
I’m not happy with Gerrards role. I said myself on Sunday that I’d rather see him dropped than play that deep. It was more your comment ‘the positive mafia’. That implies to me that you’re naturally quite negative when it comes to LFC and let’s face it there’s certainly plenty of them about whether you’re in that category or not.
I don’t really understand what we can gain by increasing the pressure on Rodgers. He is here for the next two seasons results business or not. That team is not dropping into the bottom half of the table between after Christmas and the end of next season. Therefore there’ll be no axe falling. It goes against everything the owners say they’re trying to achieve.
Why not just enjoy this transitional period for this season? Refrain from letting it consume you (as it does me). Enjoy watching the young lads. See what Rodgers has to offer without getting wound up. Then next season we can all go back to being extremely demanding. Why not help make Anfield a buzzing or enjoyable place to be and sing our hearts out to give the team the lift they need? Some of those players on the pitch look scared.
Sorry If you think I’m sounding a bit like Martin Luther King here but it does appear to me that we’re at a crossroads. This could be the year we threw off the shackles of the past and move into the future. Unfortunately, we need ‘Being Liverpool’. We’re in danger of becoming one of those little dark sweet shops that sell sweets like humbugs in a jar still. They’re really good shops and have a lot of character but they’re a bit wank as well. We need to be more like Tesco and Utd, if we’re honest. Night mate
agree with a lot said on yesterday’s podcast, and that the gerrard “situation” needs answering although i am not really sure what the solution should be. Right at the start of the season, when i realised we’d be playing wide men in either a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-3-3, i fancied Gerrard on the right, albeit with a bit of a license. But given his visible lack of enthusiasm/energy i am not sure that would be the best solution, and for now i believe that resting him a bit more regularly should be a starting point.
So no real answer for Gerrard conundrum but i have another idea i’d like to share. I had quite a big bet on Enrique (bought his goal minutes at 2 with Sporting index – awful price!!) against Swansea after seeing his performance on the wing against Wigan. As mentioned on the podcast he has a great ability to get into the box, or make near/far post runs and take a gamble, basically always giving us an option. Anyway, seeing the goal ruled out against Swansea was gutting to say the least.
But, getting to my point finally, i’d like to see Glen Johnson given a run in the wide right position as i think he’d perform similarly effectively to Enrique and the three (including suarez) of them could provide an extremely threatening forward 3.
IMO Glen has been our second best player of the season, nothing short of outstanding, and so it may be controversial to move him i know. But with Wisdom coming back, and with the agreed need to give Sterling a rest, i’d love to see how the 3 of them would do. Don’t get me wrong, unless it was a huge success, i want Glen at R/L back long term, and sterling on the wing, but again, if we need to give Sterling a rest, which we 100% do, i’d love to see what damage Glen could do there…
Pepe
Flanagan Sketel Agger Wisdom
Allen Henderson/Lucas
Gerrard
johnson Enrique
Suarez
We might take a bit of flack for playing 6 “defenders” but to hell with it, that team would excite me!
I hope against hope that Rodgers does well!
But imagine if we saw the headline “Ferguson Retires;Paul Jewell Appointed Manager of Manchester United”
Why not? They have very similar records of taking unfashionable sides to promotion and hanging on to their status.
But I’m getting just a little disillusioned with Rodgers.What’s all this talk about “I got rid of 7 players in my first season at Swansea and 9 in my second season.I won’t call this MY team till I have the players I want!”
Every press conference goes on about what a poor squad we have and how we need to buy in January.The squad is surely filled with confidence at that kind of talk!
Poor squad?Do me a favour!The squad is FULL of International players.WE might all have our personal whipping boys but overall I’m certain that the majority would say that we have some pretty good players.
People are calling for Gerrard to be binned off! Gerrard is probably the best player we’ve ever had taking into account the number of games he’s won by his own inspiration.He’s now on the short-list for The FIFA World Eleven!
But he’s had a drop in form;so has Reina:so has Johnson:so has Skirtel:so has Downing:and there’s a few more.Any answers?
Rodgers has got to up his game and stop talking us down.At the moment he seems pre-occupied with trying to justify his position.He’s presently Manager of one of the biggest Clubs in World Football!Hodgson turned out to be a similar rabbit in the headlights!
We don’t need excuses;just let’s see some action.You’ve got the players-just get on with it!
Hey Brian,
I take your point, but why do you think Rodgers is on the defensive, apart from all the stupid questions the press corps serve him like the one he answered with that remark about his Swansea recruitment? Don’t you think it is because he feels he has big shoes to fill and needs to justify to everyone who is doubting him before he has had a chance to show his finished article. This, despite there being signs of improvement from last season.
The owners philosophy is to try to back themselves to find the diamond in the rough, and I reckon with BR they have found him, but this is just a hunch at this stage. It wasn’t just that Swansea held on to their promotion that got people talking about BR, it was the impressive manner in which they did it. Anyway, his previous record is irrelevant now, and we should only be judging him by the potential we see in the way the team is playing, and more importantly his record after a reasonable period of time (because lets face it, if we were really that great at football analysis we would managing not writing about it on football websites, wouldn’t we?).
And to be fair, Rodgers almost always answers that question about new players (which he gets asks every bloody press conference!) by saying we need one or two more players to help out the squad, not that the team is poor overall. Sure we have 6-7 champions league level players but that is only 2/3 of a champions league team, so of course we need quite a few more players. I think that his comment about getting new players in, was meant more along the lines that we have good players in the squad at the moment but they might not quite fit the style of football that he wants implement, and that only when he has champions league players of the style that he is after will the team reach the peak that he is able to take them to.
There seems to be a real reluctance or refusal for most Liverpool fans to face the reality that Gerrard is now an ordinary player. I’ve read and heard all the excuses in the world as to why je’s not putting in good performances. Playing him in the wrong position, he’s had too many games and looks tired, he hadnt had enough games and isnt yet match fit. Brendan watches him train every day and hasnt put Gerrard at the apex of the midfield three or in a wide position. Instead he tried to buy Sigurdson and Dempsey to play at the apex of the midfield or behind the striker, and is playing a 17 year old and a left back in the wide forward positions. What does that tell you?
These days Gerrard gives you 2 or 3 moments of quality per game if that. A great through ball or a lovely cross or pass. But when was the last time he had a great game where he was dominant over the opposition? 3-4 years ago Gerrard would have been a dynamic threat playing in the same position as he is now. He’s never been the best off the ball or defensively but he’d have been a magnificent threat in this position if you rewound the clock 3-4 years. The truth is he’s not half the player he was but fans and the guys on the podcast just tiptoe around the issue. It needs to be tackled head on like that magnificent podcast where the question was asked would you keep Kenny or not. Now that was a podcast.
Another reality is that our midfield players just arent good enough. Neither are the wide forwards. Its no wonder we struggle to win games.
Fair point mate.
Gerrard is an “ordinary” player?
Don’t bother any more Mate!
Lots of Love!
Robin, good reply. Fair play.
JCUZZY, ‘Gerrard is now an ordinary player’…… I’m not even going to reply.
I’ve just watched that mess of a game. Yet again poor team selection and an even worse game plan. Henderson over Gerrard for the attacking midfield role? Gerrard came alive in the last 5 minutes, showing his true self, no doubt ignoring Rodgers piss poor plan, as personal pride got the better of him.
But I’m gonna be fair to the lads…we had the more interesting hair cuts by around 75%. There’s another stat for the stat obsessive fans who ignore the only stat the counts: the result.
Thank you and good night.
Hello Tom C,
Why does a Club like Liverpool FC have to look for a rough diamond?
Put it this way;the job of Manager of LFC is advertised.The applicants are Del Bosque,Guardiloa,Mourinho,Benitez….and Paul Jewell and Brendan Rodgers and Sam Allardyce.
How would you draw your short-list up?
When Shankly came in I would have understood how the Directors would have been inspired by his personality and inspiration.
Oh! I Just don’t know any more!